MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

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kjaworski-bb
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MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by kjaworski-bb »

Hello,

Recently got a notification of a user automatically creating an MXL of a composition based from a PDF I had uploaded.

No objection to someone doing that in principle, and nothing in the CPDL license prevents it AFAICT.

BUT ... that MXL was then uploaded back to the CPDL page and listed as my edition. Is there any way to prevent this? (To be clear, happy for the MXL to be uploaded, just not to be associated with my name).

Why should any user be able to add new editions to a work under somebody else's name? I try to take a lot of care in the editions I prepare, and focus on things like clarity, legibility, page turns, etc. An MXL file won't preserve these nuances at all, and any auto transcription of PDF to MXL is almost certainly going to introduce layout errors or artefacts in the process - and I really don't want my name to be associated with someone else's action. (In this specific case as well, the MXL generated is invalid and errors on opening!).

There's already a precedent for creating NEW editions based on other contributors' work where you've either used their edition or even their source file (.sib, .mxl, .whatever), with descriptions (e.g. CPDL#[new edition] ... description: based on CPDL#[older edition], and I've made changes X and Y to the edition). Should we enforce this for this MXL case too?

Thanks!
Claude_T
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Claude_T »

Hi, Karol,
Thanks for your contributions to CPDL.
I understand your thoughts, but want to let you know that:
1. Converting a PDF file to an MXL one isn't intending to reproduce exactly a visual/optical score. It's intended to allow users to use your edition more easily, to change something about tempo, pitch and more generally, helping conductors to adapt settings to ther choirs forces and ability, even to create a new CPDL edition, citing their source, like you did regarding many of your own editions;
2. "Merely changing format never creates a derivative" can be read on that page: https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/File:2021-11-11.png
3. I haven't and will not add an MXL file to your edition there: https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Wer ... _Jaworski), just because you have chosen a 'Personal' copyright. In the future, just choose the 'Personal' copyright if you don't want CPDL to facilitate your music usage by other users.
Do you want me to remove MXL files? On which pages?
I'd be glad you'd feel free to add yourself interchange format files in your editions.
Richard Mix
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Richard Mix »

Hi Claude,

This can be confusing in many ways: I almost contacted a listed editor about a garbled MXL before checking the page history and noticing that the file was added by you. I haven't yet had the courage to check on the many files you added where it appears as if I am the 'editor'. Why not just add a new edition with the credit "based on CPDL#NNNNN"?
choralia
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by choralia »

Richard Mix wrote: 05 May 2022 06:34 Why not just add a new edition with the credit "based on CPDL#NNNNN"?
Honestly speaking, I'm not a fan of the MXL format because the way it is specified (or maybe the way it is implemented in music editing programs) always results in a rather approximate representation of the original score, which may also depend on the specific music editing programs used (in spite of the fact that MusicXML was originally intended to facilitate the porting of sheet music information from one software package to another software package).

So, from this viewpoint, MXL files are not much different from MIDI files or mp3 files, as they are all approximate representations of the source score. In my opinion, whenever a MXL file is provided for a certain edition, the MXL file should not be regarded as a new edition, but just as a different (and approximate) representation of the same edition, like a MIDI or a mp3 file.

I don't think that it is much important to indicate the author of the conversion to MXL format, as there is nothing original in that process, it's just a mere transformation from a representation of the sheet music into another (less accurate) representation of the same sheet music. Maybe we should instead better warn users about the inherent limitations and inaccuracies of the MXL format, so that they do not expect a flawless porting from one music editing program to another.

Max
Richard Mix
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Richard Mix »

What I seem to be observing is that I can make a far better MXL from Sibelius source code than Claude can from a scan of my PDF, and it's worrisome that I appear to be the responsible party. Perhaps a modified CPDL copyright would be a better way for me to go?

I do ordinarily enjoy hearing directly from various corners of the world, but I would be glad for Claude or anyone to make at least something available to others when I'm not available to answer requests; recently I wanted code for a Lassus Mass that Philip Legge contributed, but as Claude was quick to point out it has a personal copyright, and there was no recourse but for me to enter everything from scratch.
kjaworski-bb
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by kjaworski-bb »

(Note: I don't intend on making this a thread about pros/cons of MXL files).

I'm with Richard on this... Why do we list editors on CPDL? Amongst other reasons, an important one is traceability, and to be able to contact the editor if you wish to / need to. If there are questions / errors / issues with the editions, it's reasonable to contact the editor, yet in this case I'd be contacted about an edition/file I have had nothing to do with and shouldn't be my problem. Especially since these MXL files contain numerous errors and problems (not through limitation of MXL format - the pitches, rhythms and underlay are changed in many places!) and are also corrupted, I don't want to be nagged about them since they're not mine!

Given that there's precedent for creating new editions with a credit "based on CPDL#1234" for similar processes anyway, should this be enforced for this sort of auto-conversion too?

To answer Claude's specific points:
1. I understand the limitations of MXL music format, and my issue isn't with these specifically. You are however changing my scores through your process (more details below). Since you are making changes, you should probably create a new CPDL edition as you suggest.
2. "Merely changing format..." - you link to a screenshot of a CC licence which is nothing to do with the CPDL licence here so I'm not sure how applicable this is anyway. Specific licenses aside, you are doing more than changing format. Your conversion process changes many notes, rhythms, much of the underlay, etc. even if you aren't actively "doing" something, your inaction creates a derivative work that is objectively and substantially different to my edition.
3. No, you shouldn't do this to anything with a Personal copyright; yet my hosting personal copyright editions on CPDL still facilitates usage and performance by others. It just gives me more control over how that happens. I'm not sure why you are suggesting otherwise.
4. Yes, I would appreciate it if you remove the MXL files you've created from my PDFs. If you want to continue to make the MXL file available for others to use (since the CPDL licence doesn't allow me to enforce this request), please add it as a new edition to the work page so it is clear that the MXL is nothing to do with me. This should be done for the two pages you've already changed ( https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Son ... 99%C3%A1k) and https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/The ... _Bairstow) ), and also for any future pages with my editions.
5. Noted - but it's ultimately my choice whether I upload MXL files or not, regardless of licence used when uploading.[/list]
Claude_T
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Claude_T »

MXL files unlinked and removed.
kjaworski-bb
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by kjaworski-bb »

I see that someone has restored the file links to the pages affected with a note indicating that the MXLs are nothing to do with me, which is not an unreasonable compromise.

One consequence I hadn't realised until now though is that these actions prevent me from uploading an MXL of my edition should I want to in the future. Because Claude is the 'Owner' of the upload, I'm not permitted to overwrite the file myself.

Surely this might be a good reason for any auto-generated files to be uploaded as new editions rather than tagged onto existing ones, since the original contributor may wish to upload other file formats of their own work in the future, and would currently be prevented from doing so.
choralia
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by choralia »

The CPDL logo reads: "Free Choral Music". "Free" means both "gratis" (i.e., anyone can download and use sheet music on CPDL free of charge, respecting the applicable copyright policy) and "libre" (i.e., anyone can upload to CPDL their editions of own sheet music, and no one should apply any sort of "censorship" on somebody else's contributions). It's the usual difference between "free beer" and "freedom of speech".

So, if you wish to upload your own MXL files, please do that as an addition to those uploaded by others. You may add a remark that those uploaded by you are likely closer to your edition, however, aside any technical block, I wouldn't suggest to delete those uploaded by others. They may be withdrawn by the submitter if he/she believes that they are not useful any more.

Max
Richard Mix
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Richard Mix »

Max, when you say "if you wish to upload your own MXL files" it's unclear to me if you're addressing MXL extractors or the original editor. The issue seems to me one of how editors are represented. User:David Fraser dealt with transposition requests by 'anonymising' Sibelius files so that his name would not appear on derivative editions, yet he is identified on the workpages as the editor of associated MXL files made from them by someone else. This makes me think Personal copyright might be preferable to ©CPDL.
choralia
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by choralia »

Richard Mix wrote: 18 Jul 2022 21:12 it's unclear to me if you're addressing MXL extractors or the original editor
In this case I was addressing the original editor, anyway it makes no difference. We have to consider that any conversion to MusicXML format is a mere transformation (with inaccuracies added, typically) of the representation of the original edition. No original contents are added by anyone who performs the conversion. Therefore, copyright on the MusicXML file is the same copyright of the initial edition, and the result cannot be regarded as a derivative edition: it's just the same edition in an alternative format. The "MXL extractor" does not qualify as an editor, as he/she just performs a format conversion without original contents added. Similarly, a mere transposition in another key, without any adjustment of the layout etc., does not qualify as a derivative edition, and the person who performs the transposition does not qualify as an editor.

Consequences: crediting the editor of the original edition remains required as he/she owns copyright on all its variants; crediting the person who performed the conversion to MusicXML or the transposition to another key is optional, although it may be recommended for the sake of clarity.

Does this make sense?

Max
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Richard Mix »

Thanks, I see what you're getting at, but still have reservations: MXL files created by scanning a pdf are going to vary based on the scanner, and are also quite different from one created from a Sib file.
Another doubtful example is https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/St_ ... _di_Lasso) where I needed to save on paper, but used Bud Clark's Sib file to make CPDL #19377. I believe I erred in not making my participation in 'his' edition more transparent.
Claude_T
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Re: MXLs erroneously uploaded under my editions

Post by Claude_T »

Richard Mix wrote: 25 Jul 2022 21:26 MXL files created by scanning a pdf are going to vary based on the scanner,
I do not *scan* files, except very few 'optical' ones (those that have been produced through photocopy).
I *convert* 'musical' PDFs, those produced by a music notation software.
Richard Mix wrote: 25 Jul 2022 21:26 and are also quite different from one created from a Sib file.
That is the reason for which I began to produce XML files from Finale, Sibelius and other music notation software files.
When it came to editions without any source file, I considered that many users would be glad to find an editable file even with 'garbled' elements inside…
like yourself when you asked me, on my talk page https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Mis ... _di_Lasso), to produce an MXL file regarding https://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Mis ... _di_Lasso)!
After having asked Max about our ability to convert files, even under 'Personal' copyright, I've just been able to satisfy your request and I'm sure that you'll spare much time and energy thanks to my conversion(s) ;-)
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