Choral Public Domain Library

Hi

Could someone go through the trouble of directing me to where I can find information about church liturgy (I tried the internet with limitted success)? I noticed that Victoria composed several settings of the Magnificat, and they're identified as being 'Octavi toni' odd verses, even verses, 'Quinti toni', etc, and I would like to know what that means (I think).

thanks

Cátia

Hi Catia,

'Octavi toni' undoubtedly refers to Mode VIII (also known as the Hypomixolydian mode) ... with final note on sol (G) and dominant on do (C). The Wikipedia article on Musical mode is quite good.

The custom of composing either odd numbered (or even numbered) verses was grounded on the expectation that the missing verses would be supplied by the (Gregorian) chant. For an example of this, see my edition of 'A solis ortus cardine (Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina)'. With the advent of good organs and organ playing, later composers composed organ 'variations' on such tunes to be played instead of the missing verses.

Chuck

thanks chuck, I´ll look into it! I thought it might have to do something the modes.

http://www.llpb.us/psalmody.htm
is also a good read.

Catia:

I am going to mildly disagree with Chuck. While in plainsong music there were 8 modes, classifed based upon the pitches of the dominant reciting tone, and the last note, there were a number of formulas of pitch which were used for chanting texts like the psalms and canticles, where the number of syllables per verse differed from one verse to the next. These generally were referred to as "tones", and about the beginning of the sixteenth century, these were reduced to about nine in number, named 1 through 8, and the "Tonus Peregrinus". Most of these tones additionally had a number of variant endings: tone 7, for example, had five: 2 that ended on "c", and one each on a, b, and d. The sets of settings (most often of the Magnificat, but also occasionally of Psalms and other canticles) by various composers in the Mediteranean, and inspired by them, are settings of the tones, and while there are 8 modes, and 8 tones, there is not automatically a 1 to 1 correspondence between the modes and tones. For example, mode 7, Mixolyidan, is characterized by a reciting tone on G, and an ending pitch on D; tone 7 has a reciting tone on D, and the five finals noted above. only one of them (a) would fit the parameters of the mixolydian mode.

Chuck's example of his edition of Palestrina's "A Solis Ortus Cardine" is a little different, because it is a hymn. Unlike the canticles or Psalms, Hymns which had a different number of syllables from one verse to the next, Hymns were strophic, so that each strophe contained the same number of syllables, and accent patterns which were generally similar from one strophe to the next. The hymns also featured a composed melody, as contrasted with a rhythmic formula to be applied based on the final accents, and were, in fact "modal". "A solis ortus cardine" is in mode 3.

Finally, if this is not confusing enough, most of the Psalm tones had two forms, one simpler, and the other a bit more elaborate. The magnificat was set to the more elaborate tone, as a rule, and Psalms, were generally to less elaborate.

ns

ns writes:

Chuck's example of his edition of Palestrina's "A Solis Ortus Cardine" is a little different, because it is a hymn.

This example was given as one in which the even verses are composed, whilst the odd numbered verses are to be chanted. I did not intend it to have anything to do with modes.

As for modes, I gave the "simple answer" - as I am well aware of the variants of the church modes which occur for reciting Psalms and Antiphons for Canticles (where variant endings were used generally to provide a bridge to the mode/tone of the following chanted proper). I did omit tonus perigrinus (which is not one of the numbered modes). But mainly, my comments were for the usual conventions for Renaissance compositions of such stand-alone works like the Magnificat.

chuck

Chuck:

I borrowed the example which served you well to illustrate alternatim practice between plainsong and polyphony [in which you described the practice as I understand it, perhaps better than I might have done myself], to illustrate a slightly different point, which is the difference between a modal hymn melody, and a Psalm tone. The magnificat settings Catia asked about are solemn Psalm tones, not modes; "A solis ortus" is a hymn melody in mode 3, but is not a Psalm tone, though the practice of alternatim singing on canticles chanted to Psalm tones, particularly of the Magnificat, was as common as the alternatim practice on Hymns.

My point is that the melody to "A solis ortus" is a mode 3 melody which has nothing to do with _tone_ 3, and that the Palestrina settings of tone 3 are not in the Phrygian mode and thus have nothing to do with mode 3.

ns

Ummmmm ... did I say anything at all about mode or tone with respect to the Palestrina? - it was cited solely to illustrate the odd/even verses situation.

I'm sorry if I misspoke and referred to Octavi toni as Mode VIII when I should have said Tone 8.

Can we have an end to this?

chuck

Chuck,

Yes, indeed, the thread has run its course, IMO. If I seemed overly insistent, it is only because I have had the experience of discussing with a number of people whose experience or credentials suggested to me that they should know better, who confused modes and tones.

No you did not say anything about mode or tone with respect to the Palestrina; I did, mainly because you had already mentioned it, and it was convenient to those who might browse this forum as a vehicle to illustrate the difference between modes and tones.

I apologize if I seemed less than courteous, and with the apology, I do consider the thread ended.

ns