DefaultSort & German articles

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Richard Mix
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DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Richard Mix »

I'm not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere: [[Der Blumenbrief (Franz Schubert)]] sorts as " Blumenbrief, Der", before [[Das Abendroth, D 627 (Franz Schubert)]]. "Abendroth, Das" would make sense to an English-speaker, but those of us who have experience with German indices are used to the German convention of not ignoring articles in alphabetization.
http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Help ... uick_start says (C.5) "If title of work starts with an article adjective, put at the bottom: {{DEFAULTSORT:{{WorkSorter}}}}" but this hasn't been added to
http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Help ... n_guide/de

Shouldn't we amend it to follow the convention of the title's language?
carlos
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by carlos »

Thanks for raising this subject, Richard. It was probably me who included the German articles into the sorting template, but I admit not being very knowledgeable in German conventions regarding this. The German articles currently removed by WorkSorter are: { das die der den dem ein eine } Should we take from the list the first five, leaving the indefinite articles ein/eine? Would Germans sort "Ein Deutsches Requiem" under E or under D?
CHGiffen
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by CHGiffen »

From the German Wikipedia:

{{SORTIERUNG:Deutsches Requiem #Ein}}

{{SORTIERUNG:Mond #Der}}

{{SORTIERUNG:Rheingold #Das}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Forelle #Die}}

Hmmmmmmm.
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carlos
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by carlos »

Indeed, Chuck! The same for {{SORTIERUNG:Kleine Nachtmusik #Eine}}

I found this Help page that lists the sorting rules in effect on the German Wikipedia:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfe:Kat ... _abweichen

Note the 7th rule:

7. Regel: Artikel
Lemmata, die mit einem bestimmten oder unbestimmten Artikel beginnen, werden nach dem darauffolgenden Wort sortiert. Der Artikel wird ans Ende des Sortierschlüssels gestellt und mit einer Raute (#) abgetrennt.
Richard Mix
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Richard Mix »

I found the WP:de guidelines too, though not yet any related discussions (there are a few pages not in compliance, like [[Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt]] and [[La danza (Rossini)]]). What I would like to learn is whether there has been a general shift recently: my understanding is shaped by the first line index [omitted by IMSLP] of Mandyczewski's Franz Peter Schuberts Werke or those to my admittedly second-hand Goethe (1962), Schiller (1965), Eichendorff (1959)…
Claude_T
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Claude_T »

Richard:
- "Des" isn't an article;
- I've applied {{DefaultSort|WorkSorter}} to [[Das Abendroth, D 627 (Franz Schubert)]], according to the others.
carlos
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by carlos »

Claude, remember that German is an inflected language :) Des is the genitive form of Der / Das.
Claude_T
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Claude_T »

Ok, Carlos, so could it be the first word of a title/sentence?
CHGiffen
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by CHGiffen »

Des Abends, WoO 35,6 (Johannes Brahms)
Des Frühlings Ruf, Op. 169, No. 4 (Franz Lachner)
Des Knaben Wunderhorn (Richard Wagner)
Des Kriegers Abschied, WoO 143 (Ludwig van Beethoven)
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BarryJ
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by BarryJ »

A German dictionary has:
  • das (Artikel) the prn who, whom, whose
    der (Artikel) the prn that, this, he, it
    die (Artikel) siehe: der
So das, die, and der can be either an article adjective or a pronoun. As in Das hat er Alles uns getan, a stanza from a chorale by Martin Luther, BWV 91-6. Also known as Dies hat …
Difficult to automate, it appears.
Barry Johnston
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carlos
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by carlos »

BarryJ wrote: 12 Oct 2020 03:11 So das, die, and der can be either an article adjective or a pronoun. As in Das hat er Alles uns getan, a stanza from a chorale by Martin Luther, BWV 91-6. Also known as Dies hat …
Difficult to automate, it appears.
Ouch! I wasn't aware of that... but I guess that such homographs also occur in other languages as well. If the majority of the cases are definite/indefinite articles, then I think it's still worth to rely on {{WorkSorter}} for them, and to manually add a sort key to the exceptions only.
CHGiffen
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by CHGiffen »

The German article dem is also used as a (relative or demonstative) pronoun.
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Richard Mix
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Richard Mix »

Difficult to automate indeed: Des Abends (in the evening) but Frühlings Ruf, Des (the call of Spring). I would think that argues for keeping things under "D", but I'd still like to understand WP:de's rationale. I still can't find a print index that ignores articles; an English datapoint is the Oxford Composer Companions J. S. Bach where cantatas are alphabetized under Das, Der, Die.
BarryJ
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by BarryJ »

Do your references also have Ein… Eine… Eines… under E?
Dictionary (again) says
  • ein, ~e, ~ (Artikel) a, an (Zahlwort) one prn one
, followed by a list of idioms beginning with ein.
Barry Johnston
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Richard Mix
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Re: DefaultSort & German articles

Post by Richard Mix »

Yes, for the last: "Eighteen chorales", "Eilmar, Georg Christian", "Ein feste Burg"… It occurred to me there might be a fundamental difference between first lines and titles, but Die Zeitalter des Barock has a "Register Der Gedichtanfänge und -überschriften" with Ein Geistlisch Braut-Lied amid other "Ein" incipits.

I don't think this is at all standard for French, but I'm starting to notice "La"'s under L in Attaingnant's indices too!
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